tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623316088497384976.post8862356200152018317..comments2023-09-13T07:03:47.344-07:00Comments on Live From Occupied Palestine: Falling from Heaven: the ethnic cleansing of PalestineKimhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01202280513083661037noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623316088497384976.post-7538714950766031222008-05-21T07:17:00.000-07:002008-05-21T07:17:00.000-07:00Interviews: 50th Anniversary Of Deir Yassin Massac...<B><A HREF="http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/980410/1998041030.html" REL="nofollow">Interviews: 50th Anniversary Of Deir Yassin Massacre</A></B><BR/><BR/>In retrospect, Palestinians of today admit that one of the most terrible mistakes they made back in 1948 was to over-report the details of the Deir Yassin massacre. "The goal was to mobilize Arab support for the Palestinians who were slaughtered by the Zionists but what really happened was that more and more Palestinians became scared and left their country," said Hazem Nusseibeh, a leading Palestinian figure who currently lives in Jordan. In 1948 he was among the key figures of the city of Jerusalem.<BR/><BR/>..."True, there was exchange of fire with the Jews. Prior to the attack, they used to come to the village and distribute leaflets calling for the establishment of friendly and brotherly relations with us offering a formula of 'do not hit us, we won't hit you.' Our youths confronted them and did not listen to them. Our youths used to go out to the eastern side of the village and beat up whatever Jew they saw."<BR/><BR/>...Mohammed Asaad Radwan Al Yassini, 70, who currently lives in the Old City of Jerusalem, confirmed that some of the men were dressed in women's outfits. <BR/><BR/>...Did they use speakers and what did they say?<BR/><BR/>"They called on us to surrender, to throw our weapons and to save ourselves. But we did not imagine them breaking into the village.<BR/><BR/>...Ali Yousef Jaber, Abu Yousef, is also 70 years old. He lives in Am'ari refugee camp near Ramallah. Excerpts below:<BR/><BR/>"I would like to stress on the fact that no rape incidents took place. That was part of a big lie that some of the Arabs and some of our leaders invented but were refuted by our villagers. I was among a group of people who went to Saad Eddin Al Aref to talk to him about this. He told us he wanted to frame them and attribute to them a brutal crime. I said to him: if you want to frame them, do not use Deir Yassin, or our women. Do not attribute to us something that never happened, otherwise this is infamy that our village and its people do not deserve...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08823910412653399923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623316088497384976.post-10570006572770440512008-05-12T12:05:00.000-07:002008-05-12T12:05:00.000-07:00Dear Neville from Malta, thanks for you comment - ...Dear Neville from Malta, <BR/>thanks for you comment - I am not sure what happened but I accidently deleted it when I attempted to moderate the comments (I hit publish but not sure what happened...) Sorry to have accidently have deleted it, but thanks for the nice words and support!<BR/><BR/>cheers, KimKimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01202280513083661037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623316088497384976.post-31888489164891152522008-05-12T12:01:00.000-07:002008-05-12T12:01:00.000-07:00Dear Rob,yes an interesting article and yes, defin...Dear Rob,<BR/>yes an interesting article and yes, definitely Zionist propaganda.<BR/><BR/>A quick question - did you actually read the quote you posted from Benny Morris? In it he states (quoting from your post)- It is true, as Erskine Childers pointed out long ago (in the 1960s actually, along with a Palestinian academic, whose name escapes me at the moment) that there were no Arab broadcasts urging the Arabs to flee en mass; indeed, ther were broad casts by several Arab radio stations urgeing them to stay put".<BR/><BR/>However, as Morris goes onto note, at a local level in a number of place Arab leaders did advise or order the evacuation of women and children.<BR/><BR/>This as Morris noted happened, for example, in Haifa. What he fails to fail fully, this came after a 6 month bombing and terror campaign by the Irgun (as outlined in my article) and it came in the wake of Dier Yassin (less then 10 days after it). Palestinians were aware of the Massacre and this played no small part in some local leaders and communities deciding to leave as they were worried their communities would befall the same fate (this was acknowledge later by Begin, as one of the primary reason for victory in Jaffa). <BR/><BR/>In relation to the article you linked - its interesting they quote Jabotinsky extensively in it as sayin oh how lovely we can all live together. They fail but to quote his most famous essay, The Iron Wall.<BR/><BR/>In the Iron Wall, Jabotinsky says:<BR/><BR/>"Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population – an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would only be hypocrisy"<BR/><BR/>The Iron Wall he refers to is an iron wall made of bayonet steel.<BR/><BR/>The article you linked also makes the spurious arguement that it was the leadership of the Palestinians, who were the only ones who had an opposition to the Zionists and they mislead their people (oh yes, thats right, blame the victims!). <BR/><BR/>However, as Jabotinsky notes in the IRon Wall:<BR/><BR/>"Any native people – its all the same whether they are civilized or savage – views their country as their national home, of which they will always be the complete masters. They will not voluntarily allow, not only a new master, but even a new partner. And so it is for the Arabs. Compromisers in our midst attempt to convince us that the Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked by a softened formulation of our goals, or a tribe of money grubbers who will abandon their birth right to Palestine for cultural and economic gains. I flatly reject this assessment of the Palestinian Arabs. Culturally they are 500 years behind us, spiritually they do not have our endurance or our strength of will, but this exhausts all of the internal differences. We can talk as much as we want about our good intentions; but they understand as well as we what is not good for them. They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile. This childish fantasy of our “Arabo-philes” comes from some kind of contempt for the Arab people, of some kind of unfounded view of this race as a rabble ready to be bribed in order to sell out their homeland for a railroad network.<BR/><BR/>This view is absolutely groundless. Individual Arabs may perhaps be bought off but this hardly means that all the Arabs in Eretz Israel are willing to sell a patriotism that not even Papuans will trade. Every indigenous people will resist alien settlers as long as they see any hope of ridding themselves of the danger of foreign settlement".<BR/><BR/>Interesting that the author of the article you linked is quite content to quote certain writings of Jabotinsky but not just not this writing of Jabotinsky - hmmm could it be because it, it undermines and goes completely against his arguement...Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01202280513083661037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623316088497384976.post-64743925985311262402008-05-12T03:17:00.000-07:002008-05-12T03:17:00.000-07:00Kim,Another interesting article for you.Personally...Kim,<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/1948--israel--and-the-palestinians-the-true-story-11355" REL="nofollow">Another interesting article for you</A>.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I've always been pretty dubious about the Zionist account - that all the refugees just fled. But this article looks well-researched and persuasive, and tells a very different account to the usual Palestinian narrative. For example, that it was the Arabs who in many cases forced the Palestinians to flee (especially foreign fighters with the Arab Liberation Army), that the Zionists often pleaded with them to stay, and that the forced expulsions were very few and arose only from military exigency.<BR/><BR/>Now this could just be Zionist propaganda, of course.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05192150807820450127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623316088497384976.post-11131578043770271262008-05-11T03:54:00.000-07:002008-05-11T03:54:00.000-07:00Oh and a final couple of quotes from Morris:In the...Oh and a final couple of quotes from Morris:<BR/><BR/>In the interview he does with Shavit for Harretz, the interview ends with Morris saying: <BR/><BR/>"Something like a cage has to be built for them [The Palestinians]. I know that sounds terrible. It is really cruel. But there is no choice. There is a wild animal there that has to be locked up in one way or another"<BR/><BR/>How silly of me... of course Zionism is not a racist ideology...<BR/><BR/>Also in relation to the ethnic cleansing, Morris states in the interview:<BR/><BR/>Shavit: You went through an interesting process. You went to research Ben-Gurion and the Zionist establishment critically, but in the end you actually identify with them. You are as tough in your words as they were in their deeds.<BR/><BR/>Morris: You may be right. Because I investigated the conflict in depth, I was forced to cope with the in-depth questions that those people coped with. I understood the problematic character of the situation they faced and maybe I adopted part of their universe of concepts. But I do not identify with Ben-Gurion. I think he made a serious historical mistake in 1948. Even though he understood the demographic issue and the need to establish a Jewish state without a large Arab minority, he got cold feet during the war. In the end, he faltered.<BR/><BR/>Shavit: I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that Ben-Gurion erred in expelling too few Arabs?<BR/><BR/>If he was already engaged in expulsion, maybe he should have done a complete job. I know that this stuns the Arabs and the liberals and the politically correct types. But my feeling is that this place would be quieter and know less suffering if the matter had been resolved once and for all. If Ben-Gurion had carried out a large expulsion and cleansed the whole country - the whole Land of Israel, as far as the Jordan River. It may yet turn out that this was his fatal mistake. If he had carried out a full expulsion - rather than a partial one - he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations.<BR/><BR/>So there you go, Benny Morris in his own words in an interview to an Israeli newspaper states clearly, there was ethnic cleansing but he thinks there wasn't enough of it...<BR/><BR/>Again, how silly of me... of course Zionism is not a racist ideology that stole another people's land...Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01202280513083661037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623316088497384976.post-52041270085037208032008-05-11T03:52:00.000-07:002008-05-11T03:52:00.000-07:00Rob, as for Benny Morris - I always find it intere...Rob, <BR/>as for Benny Morris - I always find it interesting that Zionists once they realise how racist and appalling their statement are they try to back pedal.<BR/><BR/>The fact is other historians have confirmed what Morris has confirmed but they don't then try to say it wasnt true as he does.<BR/><BR/>As does Ben Gurion's diaries (suggest you read them sometime)<BR/><BR/>And as for 1947, the fact is Ben Gurion didnt want partition any more than the Palestinians (read his diaries) but he settled for it as in interim solution. He states clearly in his diaries, he sees partition as a way of establishing a foot hold in Palestine and then after its done the Zionist will use military agression to gain the rest of it (don't believe me? As I said read his diaries its all there in black and white).<BR/><BR/>And as for the Palestinians - well of course they rejected partition. How would you feel Rob is someone came into your home and said, well sorry matey, there were people living here 2000 years ago and sorry, you have to give them half your house (doesnt' matter they have been living in Europe for the last 1000 years and you ahve been living here for the last 1500 years or so). Just shut up and be quite, oh and when they take half the house, they will also take a bit more each year, but shhhh, don't complain. After all its just your house.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01202280513083661037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623316088497384976.post-84781371828035641652008-05-11T03:40:00.000-07:002008-05-11T03:40:00.000-07:00Rob,Actually no I don't misrepresent it - what is ...Rob,<BR/>Actually no I don't misrepresent it - what is quoted is from the plan itself. <BR/><BR/>As with Plan Dalet, you simply need to go and read the words of the Zionist leaders themselves, including Ben Gurion to see what a racist, colonial ideology Zionism is.<BR/><BR/>And if the Zionists were only being defensive, how is that the they were working in coordination up to 5 months before a state was even declared and they were attacking areas that were designated as part of the Palestinian state (such as Jaffa).<BR/><BR/>No Rob, as I outline in the post, the Zionist terror gangs were attacking Palestinian civilian residential areas in December (and earlier) of 1947. This had nothing to do with "defensive", it was to do with agressive ethnic cleansing and colonialism.<BR/><BR/>As for the IDF website - you are seriously not suggesting are you Rob that the IDF website is a neutral source of information???Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01202280513083661037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623316088497384976.post-83890681710509169252008-05-09T23:43:00.000-07:002008-05-09T23:43:00.000-07:00You also seriously misrepresent 'Plan D'. This wa...You also seriously misrepresent 'Plan D'. This was simply the Haganah's master plan for the defence of the Jewish state. It's available on the IDF's website. It canvasses who the enemy are likely to be and what their likely strategy is, then goes on to outline the defence. Part of the defensive strategy was to occupy the Arab villages on the front line and garrison them. If the villagers resisted, they were to be expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state. Of note, it is only the defensive front line that is considered here,not the Jewish state as a whole. Since the Jews did not want to fight an invading force with a hostile militia at their backs, the military logic was impeccable - as Morris remarks at the end of his letter.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05192150807820450127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623316088497384976.post-71143192570627709962008-05-09T18:52:00.000-07:002008-05-09T18:52:00.000-07:00Kim,Here is the latest from Benny Morris for you t...Kim,<BR/><BR/>Here is the latest from Benny Morris for you to ponder:<BR/><BR/>"Madam, - Israel-haters are fond of citing - and more often, mis-citing - my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections.<BR/><BR/>The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible "in some bizarre way" (David Norris, January 31st) for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple.<BR/><BR/>In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181), they launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes.<BR/><BR/>It is true, as Erskine Childers pointed out long ago, that there were no Arab radio broadcasts urging the Arabs to flee en masse; indeed, there were broadcasts by several Arab radio stations urging them to stay put. But, on the local level, in dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities, as occurred in Haifa in late April, 1948. And Haifa's Jewish mayor, Shabtai Levy, did, on April 22nd, plead with them to stay, to no avail.<BR/><BR/>Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.<BR/><BR/>The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as two-thirds of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee) - was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the result of a national conflict and a war, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.<BR/><BR/>There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet (Plan D), of March 10th, 1948 (it is open and available for all to read in the IDF Archive and in various publications), was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. That's what it explicitly states and that's what it was. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15th.<BR/><BR/>It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that mid-way in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic.<BR/><BR/>The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies - much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two.<BR/><BR/>I would recommend that the likes of Norris and Landy read some history books and become acquainted with the facts, not recycle shopworn Arab propaganda. They might then learn, for example, that the "Palestine War" of 1948 (the "War of Independence," as Israelis call it) began in November 1947, not in May 1948. By May 14th close to 2,000 Israelis had died - of the 5,800 dead suffered by Israel in the whole war (ie almost 1 per cent of the Jewish population of Palestine/Israel, which was about 650,000). - Yours, etc,<BR/><BR/>Prof BENNY MORRIS, Li-On, Israel.<BR/>February 21, 2008"Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05192150807820450127noreply@blogger.com